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1965 LEM, full sealed - is this real deal? or fake


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#1 kingofwarsaw

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 05:37 AM

hi - i need your advise. i purchased this lem bottle but i'm not sure if it's real or fake - juice looks a bit dark as for lem, and front label looks too good as for 50 yo bottle (it seems re-labeled to me). someone might simply put lem label on old black label bottle to sell it for big bucks. lem labels are easy to buy on ebay. can you, please compare it to other mid-60s bottles from your collection? thank you.

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#2 Edwin

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 05:55 AM

I do not have Lem's but looking at the condition of the back label in comparison with the front label, you can see there is a clear difference. The front label looks brand new.
On the other hand, the cello and paper seal look genuine. So, my opinion. It's a lem allright which is relabelled with the front label

But maybe the real LEM collectors can give you a better answer.


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#3 kingofwarsaw

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 06:33 AM

i did some research myself and the original label of this era looks a bit different, faded for sure. and ebay labels look exactly like the one on the bottle... big question now, is the bottle worth $1300 as is - with the doubts? i would reather have damaged but original label on it for this price. refurbished item looses much in my eyes.

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#4 MikeandJack

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Posted 15 September 2018 - 04:39 AM

The tax stamp on the bottle has the usual wear for a 53 year old bottle, but the labels look like they have no wear. That throws up a red flag to me, but I'll be honest....I don't know if it is real or not.

Edited by MikeandJack, 15 September 2018 - 04:41 AM.

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#5 Max

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Posted 15 September 2018 - 05:59 AM

It is possible to find mint condition labels as I know some people are still holding on to full sealed cases however I do think this one has the original rear label and a new front label applied, I'm not home right now to compare to mine but I think this year should have 90 proof written on the front label, the ones without any proof written on them are the most common unused labels found on ebay

Now if is does turn out to be a re-applied label would you class that as a fake or restored ? I'm not so sure but if you had a full sealed bottle like this with a badly damaged or faded label I could understand why they did it, the seller should have explained it was restored though (if he knew)


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#6 Smitdawg

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Posted 16 September 2018 - 02:54 AM

The front label has defiantly been changed by looking at my bottles


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#7 kingofwarsaw

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Posted 16 September 2018 - 04:21 PM

my heart is braking but i think i'll skip the sale... it's too expensive bottle to have it somehow improved. if anybody wants it i'll be happy to share the contact. $1250 + shipping.


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#8 southrock

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Posted 16 September 2018 - 06:14 PM

my heart is braking but i think i'll skip the sale... it's too expensive bottle to have it somehow improved. if anybody wants it i'll be happy to share the contact. $1250 + shipping.

That is a wise move in my mind !!   I don't believe it's ever worth that kind of money for a questionable bottle !!!  JMO


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#9 Bavarianjack

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 07:50 PM

Use the datebase here in the house and you'll find a answer on your question .....


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#10 dalewoo10

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Posted 19 September 2018 - 08:58 AM

the front label looks new compared to the rest of the bottle -- but it is a original label--- and in pristine condition --so it is all original - just new label on it-- maybe just enjoy what you have ---j m o


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#11 kingofwarsaw

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 08:41 AM

the front label looks new compared to the rest of the bottle -- but it is a original label--- and in pristine condition --so it is all original - just new label on it-- maybe just enjoy what you have ---j m o

label from the 80s, bottle from the 60s - it just doesnt match, even thou it's all original.

 

just like fake 'milion cases' bottles - juice the same, beautiful label also original, but hand placed on the regular bl bottle outside the factory.... and now, does it make the bottle awesome? or makes you sick. i remember watching some documentary on an artist faking old picasso paintings. they were faked so good that sold as originals through respected auctions all over europe. untill the scandal... and now, one of the owners interviewed in the program had one of the fake paintings on the wall and was deeply dissapointed. he said: nothing really happened to the painting, it's as beautiful as it was yesterday, hanging in exactly in the same spot for 5 years. i was proud, watched it, admired - but as much as i loved it yesterday, i hate it today (by only knowing it's fake).

 

as of the sale, i think seller may be reading our forum or was advised on the topic - cause he cancelled the deal minutes after i wrote here i'm giving up :) i was considering getting the bottle anyways since the price was right, and later to chase the correct label and switch myself - they pop up now and then. he cancelled so i'm over it - no regrets.


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#12 Max

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 04:53 PM

label from the 80s, bottle from the 60s - it just doesnt match, even thou it's all original.

just like fake 'milion cases' bottles - juice the same, beautiful label also original, but hand placed on the regular bl bottle outside the factory.... and now, does it make the bottle awesome? or makes you sick. i remember watching some documentary on an artist faking old picasso paintings. they were faked so good that sold as originals through respected auctions all over europe. untill the scandal... and now, one of the owners interviewed in the program had one of the fake paintings on the wall and was deeply dissapointed. he said: nothing really happened to the painting, it's as beautiful as it was yesterday, hanging in exactly in the same spot for 5 years. i was proud, watched it, admired - but as much as i loved it yesterday, i hate it today (by only knowing it's fake).

as of the sale, i think seller may be reading our forum or was advised on the topic - cause he cancelled the deal minutes after i wrote here i'm giving up :) i was considering getting the bottle anyways since the price was right, and later to chase the correct label and switch myself - they pop up now and then. he cancelled so i'm over it - no regrets.


I don’t think it’s an 80’s label, they would have been 80 Proof (not sure of the year they changed and only using my phone but I’ll research it better when I’m home at the weekend) also the more recent labels had both 40%vol 80 proof written on the front.

It’s still possible this label is correct, maybe they used both plain labels and 90 proof around that time - check the database like Lutz said, there’s one there with the same label, it would make sense for the label without the proof written on it to be an early label before it was a requirement to have this information.

Also if it does turn out to have had a new label applied I’m not sure I would class it the same as the fake 10 million case bottles, someone deliberately went out to rip people off with those by putting an unused (stolen) label on a regular black label bottle, if someone had a Lem with a faded label i could really understand them wanting to restore it to how it left the Distillery, they haven’t refilled it, resealed it or tried to sell it as something it’s not. JMHO


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#13 dalewoo10

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 11:44 PM

i see your point -- i agree


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